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Author Topic:   Gun Contro
Agent
Citizen

Posts: 327
Registered: Sep 2000

posted December 31, 2000 04:17 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Agent   Click Here to Email Agent        Reply w/Quote
Just thought this was interesting...
besides, it just might start an actual discussion around here.


GUN REFRESHER COURSE

a. An armed man is a citizen. An unarmed man is a
subject.

b. A gun in the hand is better than a cop on the
phone.

c. Smith & Wesson: The original point and
click interface.

d. Gun control is not about guns; it's about
control.

e. If guns are outlawed, can we use
swords?

f. If guns cause crime, then pencils cause
misspelled words.

g. Free men do not ask permission to bear
arms.

h. If you don't know your rights, you don't have
any.

i. Those who trade liberty for security
have NEITHER.

j. The United States Constitution (c)
1791. All Rights
Reserved.

k. What part of "shall not be infringed" do you
not understand.

l.The Second Amendment is in place in case they ignore the others.

m. 64,999,987 firearm owners killed no one
yesterday.

n. Guns only have two enemies: Rust and
Politicians.

o. Know guns, Know peace and safety. No guns, no
peace nor
safety.

p. You don't shoot to kill; You shoot to stay
alive.

q. 911 - government sponsored Dial a
Prayer.

r. Assault is a behavior, not a
device.

s. Criminals love gun control - it makes their
jobs safer.

t. If Guns cause Crime, then Matches cause
Arson.

u. Only a government that is afraid of it's citizens tries to control them.

v. You only have the rights you are willing to fight for.

w. Enforce the "gun control laws" in place, don't
make more.

x. When you remove the people's right to bear arms,
you
create SLAVES.

y. The American Revolution would never have happened
with
Gun
Control.

z. "....a government by the people...for the
people....."


------------------
"There is more stupidity than hydrogen in the universe, and it has a longer shelf life."
- Frank Zappa
"God is a comedian playing to an audience too afraid to laugh."
- Voltaire
"If Stupidity got us into this mess, then why can't it get us out?"
- Will Rogers
"Glory is fleeting, but obscurity is forever. "
- Napoleon Bonaparte
"Trust in Allah, but tie your camel."
-Arabic saying

[This message has been edited by Agent (edited December 31, 2000).]

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Bear
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Posts: 93
Registered: Oct 2000

posted December 31, 2000 04:41 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Bear   Click Here to Email Bear        Reply w/Quote
In referance to point y.. The American revolution was about high taxes from the British. When independance was declared, the New American Government raised taxes.. So thousands of people were killed, and they were worse off afterwards.

Therefore, if you have a very deep mind (read: weird) like me, you can see that thanks to no gun control, taxes were raised and thousands of people (many innocent, simply forced to fight because they live there) were slaughtered, on both sides.

But, they won their liberty, and Britain was rid of a failing colony (the British were in huge debt thanks to America). Unfortuently, the americans turned the economy around and the US is now the most powerful country in the world..

Anyway, thanks to no gun control, people were killed, taxes raised and a country was born.

My point is.. in the USA today, there is no new country to BE born, so the only things that can happen with no gun control is people being killed and taxes being raised.

I rest my case.

P.S. If you understood a word of that, please explain to me.. I don't have a clue

------------------
FM/2LT Aaron "Bear" Le'pue/Elite Viper 1-4/Wing 3/M-SSD Mustang/2ESF/VEN/VE(=A=)[BRC]

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Bear
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posted December 31, 2000 04:44 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Bear   Click Here to Email Bear        Reply w/Quote
Oh, and point z.. Look at the American Election. The final outcome being decided by 11 (was it 11? about that anyway) high court judges.

Very democratic. Very "for the people".

------------------
FM/2LT Aaron "Bear" Le'pue/Elite Viper 1-4/Wing 3/M-SSD Mustang/2ESF/VEN/VE(=A=)[BRC]

Viper Flight Member
Former SCCOM
Navy Chief Idiot (self-appointed)

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Zsinj
Galactic Citizen

Posts: 45
Registered: Nov 2000

posted December 31, 2000 05:29 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Zsinj   Click Here to Email Zsinj        Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Bear:
In referance to point y.. The American revolution was about high taxes from the British. When independance was declared, the New American Government raised taxes.. So thousands of people were killed, and they were worse off afterwards.

Therefore, if you have a very deep mind (read: weird) like me, you can see that thanks to no gun control, taxes were raised and thousands of people (many innocent, simply forced to fight because they live there) were slaughtered, on both sides.

But, they won their liberty, and Britain was rid of a failing colony (the British were in huge debt thanks to America). Unfortuently, the americans turned the economy around and the US is now the most powerful country in the world..

Anyway, thanks to no gun control, people were killed, taxes raised and a country was born.

My point is.. in the USA today, there is no new country to BE born, so the only things that can happen with no gun control is people being killed and taxes being raised.

I rest my case.

P.S. If you understood a word of that, please explain to me.. I don't have a clue



I understood that :P(very logical :P)

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g5
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Posts: 156
Registered: Sep 2000

posted December 31, 2000 05:49 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for g5   Click Here to Email g5        Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Bear:
In referance to point y.. The American revolution was about high taxes from the British. When independance was declared, the New American Government raised taxes.. So thousands of people were killed, and they were worse off afterwards.

Therefore, if you have a very deep mind (read: weird) like me, you can see that thanks to no gun control, taxes were raised and thousands of people (many innocent, simply forced to fight because they live there) were slaughtered, on both sides.

But, they won their liberty, and Britain was rid of a failing colony (the British were in huge debt thanks to America). Unfortuently, the americans turned the economy around and the US is now the most powerful country in the world..

Anyway, thanks to no gun control, people were killed, taxes raised and a country was born.

My point is.. in the USA today, there is no new country to BE born, so the only things that can happen with no gun control is people being killed and taxes being raised.

I rest my case.

P.S. If you understood a word of that, please explain to me.. I don't have a clue


Bear your mistaken, the revolution wasn't over taxes, it was indirectly over taxes but it was truly over Taxation with out representation and getting cheated the whole time they were colonies.
BTW: I understood the whole thing

------------------
G5
FL3 in Viper
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Better To be thought a fool than to open your mouth and prove it.
Lincoln
Shite happens
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Anakin
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posted December 31, 2000 09:56 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Anakin   Click Here to Email Anakin        Reply w/Quote
I think it is the other way around

If the early U.S. got what they wished for, that being taxation with representation, they still would have been taxed, and they would have to send two of our own back to a country they hated. And still that wouldn't have changed anything because 2 votes out of however many there where wouldn't of have made a difference. The last thing they wanted to do was to have England still govern them, so they made up the taxation without representation, for a motive to go to war with England to gain their own independance.

p.s. I'm kinda like bear on this one, if you know what I said tell me. hehe

------------------
Captain Anakin
Commander of Personnel for the Vast Empire Army
Commander of Wildcard Platoon
CoP/PLT-CMDR/CPT Anakin/HCA-3/1PLT/1COMP/1BAT/1RGT/VEA/VE [IOC][OTH][LoCx4][CM]


"so...I want a tolet made out of solid gold, but its just not in the cards now is it..."

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Agent
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Posts: 327
Registered: Sep 2000

posted January 01, 2001 02:32 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Agent   Click Here to Email Agent        Reply w/Quote
If you want to know what the war was REALLY over, read the Declaration of Independence. You can see that it was MUCH more than just taxes. If gun control had been in place, we would not have the same "American Spirit". Yes, many peoples' lives would have been saved, but for what? To live their lives under tyranny? The bill of rights (2nd ammendment and all) were put into the constitution in direct response to the tyranny of the British government. If you know your american history fairly well, you can actually pick out the reasons for every ammendment on the bill of rights. In other words, the Bill of Rights was put in place so our government would never become so corrupt as that of Britain (at that time...not dissing any current british residents, if any in the VE). If you really want to lose your say in the government (which, by the way, means MUCH more than taxation w/o representation) then BE MY GUEST! Go ahead and THROW YOUR RIGHTS OUT THE WINDOW! SEE IF I CARE! It won't be long now. Mark my words. The limits to our rights are already in question. If we don't stand up for our rights, we will lose them, and standing up for our rights doesn't come by picking apart ONE POINT out of 26 and using THAT as an excuse to ignore the other 25. BUT, like I said, when the U.S. Government comes knocking on my door telling me that MY RIGHTS DON'T EXIST ANYMORE, I will have a way to change it. Whether or not you also do is up to you. /me steps off his soap box.

P.S. This is just an email I got and i liked the message. I don't agree with ALL of the points, either, but I considered removing a few of the points because they didn't make too much sense. I was too lazy, so I just underlined the ones that i REALLY liked. read those. I don't plan on changing anyone's mind, really. This subject is not one that will allow things like that. I am simply trying to start a debate around here. I find them fun. If you feel different about this, go ahead and post a reply and say so! You have freedom of speech, and I won't be angry at you for having different beliefs than I do.

------------------
"There is more stupidity than hydrogen in the universe, and it has a longer shelf life."
- Frank Zappa
"God is a comedian playing to an audience too afraid to laugh."
- Voltaire
"If Stupidity got us into this mess, then why can't it get us out?"
- Will Rogers
"Glory is fleeting, but obscurity is forever. "
- Napoleon Bonaparte
"Trust in Allah, but tie your camel."
-Arabic saying

[This message has been edited by Agent (edited January 01, 2001).]

IP: 207.32.44.14

Bear
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Posts: 93
Registered: Oct 2000

posted January 01, 2001 02:37 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Bear   Click Here to Email Bear        Reply w/Quote
Another thing.. in point X, you say that if you take away a persons right to own a gun, they are a slave.

Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the USA one of the few western countries which still has conscription? So the government is saying "You must do this this and this for your country". Of course, because they are soldiers, they carry guns. So it seems to me that the people can carry guns, and are not slaves, and the soldiers can carry guns, and are not slaves.. Even though the soldiers are under control of the government, effectively making them slaves.

So basically, most of servicemen (and women) in the worlds most powerful country are slaves. Unless they're not slaves, making them independant mercenaries, meaning the USA is protected by foreigners. And you don't protect a country with foreigners if you want to save it from "foreign tyranny".

It seems to me that the only free people in america are the ones who carry guns to serve themselves.

Which brings the question.. Who controls the people?
Which brings the anser.. The same person who controls the guns.

Therefore, theoretically, the US must be run by the Generals, the gunsmiths, all the Vietnam war veterans (many of whom are now milkmen in Minnesota) and farmer Joe in Wyoming.

------------------
FM/2LT Aaron "Bear" Le'pue/Elite Viper 1-4/Wing 3/M-SSD Mustang/2ESF/VEN/VE(=A=)[BRC]

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g5
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posted January 01, 2001 03:01 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for g5   Click Here to Email g5        Reply w/Quote
I agree withagent on this one and Bear, your wrong because almost all of our soldeirs are volenteers during war and all of them are volenteers during peace time, they are there to protect our rights by carrying guns. With out them, you guys in the UK would be german slaves right now i might point out, our bombers saved you and our troops took the pressure off you guys with our attacks.
Be grateful calum

------------------
G5
FL3 in Viper
Snake
SL Raiders
Better To be thought a fool than to open your mouth and prove it.
Lincoln
Shite happens
anonymous

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Timber Saden
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posted January 01, 2001 09:57 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Timber Saden   Click Here to Email Timber Saden        Reply w/Quote
Well, g5 your slightly wrong. In a time of WAR, all soldiers are not volunteers, hence such things as "Signing up for the Draft". In a time of war you are drafted(obviously certain exceptions are made) without a choice. The only exception are people who are members of the army by choice, but as I said, in a time of war thousands are drafted without a choice of their own. I've gotta agree with Bear on this one.

There's my two cents, and dammit, I want some change!

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ETRP/Sgt Timber Saden/1SQD/1PLT/1COM/1BAT/1RGT/VEA/VE/[IOC][LoC]
Ore wa kisama taosu mono da yo!
Ore wa kono youji de kisama o korosu
Kore wa bata no hocho watakushi no mono desu yo
Anata wa zeri no donattsu desu yo

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Agent
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Registered: Sep 2000

posted January 02, 2001 02:55 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Agent   Click Here to Email Agent        Reply w/Quote
hah!

Bear said(no time for fancy quote-thingies):
"It seems to me that the only free people in america are the ones who carry guns to serve themselves."

Exactly. That's why we cannot let the government take away our right to have guns. I have lots of guns, because I like to hunt.

Also:
Government has been defined as an agreement in which the people give the government power and the government in turn gives the people what they need. To give the people what they need (protection), the government must draw its power from the people (to serve in the millitary). People are drafted and the country goes to war to keep its people safe. That's the way its supposed to work. I didn't say that carrying a gun automatically removes slavery. I simply said that if the government takes away our weapons, they have the weapons and we don't, making us powerless to do anything different from what they want us to do. (if that's not slavery, then what is?)

(I find it interesting to speak about such things with people from other countries. In English class we discussed "The American Dream" and how foreigners have different views on freedom and their future, etc. One point I found very interesting was a study where americans and brits were shown pictures of the same expensive cars, and were asked what their thoughts were. The most common answer for Americans was something like "I want that car" or "I will have that car." However, the British peoples' most common reaction was wishing to destroy the car. I don't really know what to say about that...)

------------------
"There is more stupidity than hydrogen in the universe, and it has a longer shelf life."
- Frank Zappa
"God is a comedian playing to an audience too afraid to laugh."
- Voltaire
"If Stupidity got us into this mess, then why can't it get us out?"
- Will Rogers
"Glory is fleeting, but obscurity is forever. "
- Napoleon Bonaparte
"Trust in Allah, but tie your camel."
-Arabic saying

IP: 207.32.44.15

Agent
Citizen

Posts: 327
Registered: Sep 2000

posted January 02, 2001 03:00 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Agent   Click Here to Email Agent        Reply w/Quote
On second thought, i do.

WHAT DID THE CAR EVER DO TO YOU?!

/me starts thinking about his dream cars... and the chicks that come with them...

I WILL HAVE THEM!

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Talon
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posted January 02, 2001 09:36 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Talon   Click Here to Email Talon        Reply w/Quote
Did you know that in order to dodge the draft for the American Revolutionary War all you had to do was knock out your front teeth? Anyone know why?

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Schnapps
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posted January 02, 2001 10:33 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Schnapps   Click Here to Email Schnapps        Reply w/Quote
Sometimes I'm glad I'm not a member of this club any more, and this thread gives me a couple of reasons why.

Two points - first of all, modern America does not and has not gone to war to keep its people safe, or any other such outrageously naive bull like that. It goes to war to protect its economic interests. War is a continuation of finance by other means.

Secondly, I find it never-endingly amusing that Americans think their country somehow got "freedom" in the war of independance, or that there was anything remotely moral about it. Well, I find it funny, I don't think eg Malcom Luther King did.

~Schnapps

PS: I love your new President Elect - "If we do not succeed we run the risk of failure"; "I think people are misunderestimating me", etc, etc - finally one man has summed up the reaons why the rest of the world is amused by America.

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Timber Saden
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posted January 02, 2001 12:02 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Timber Saden   Click Here to Email Timber Saden        Reply w/Quote
Schnaaps, your paragraph about modern america has one large exception, who is running the country at the time. If we have a Rebuplican or a Democrat running determines our stance on war. One will push that little red button before any other country could reach their's, and another would prefer to talk with the other country and make peace before sending troops to war.

And uh, Schnapps... who is Malcom Luther King? If your making a joke I find it highly unamusing, but... I know of no such person that is Malcom Luther King.

------------------
ETRP/Sgt Timber Saden/1SQD/1PLT/1COM/1BAT/1RGT/VEA/VE/[IOC][LoC]
Ore wa kisama taosu mono da yo!
Ore wa kono youji de kisama o korosu
Kore wa bata no hocho watakushi no mono desu yo
Anata wa zeri no donattsu desu yo

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Schnapps
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posted January 02, 2001 01:19 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Schnapps   Click Here to Email Schnapps        Reply w/Quote
You give me one example of a war fought recently by America that was for altruistic means, and I'll give you countless ones that weren't.

As for Malcom Luther King, that is what we call a badly spelled typing error. It's ironic, really, that in a film so bad (yet entertaining) as The Patriot, a line so insightful as "Your vision of freedom is as pale as your skin" should be uttered.

~Schnapps

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Bear
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posted January 02, 2001 02:30 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Bear   Click Here to Email Bear        Reply w/Quote
Actually g5, thats probably the most incorrect fact about world war 2 there is..

During the D-Day landings, British Intelligence (MI5, MI6, Secret Service, etc) spread lies around the German "top brass" that the main invasion of occupied France would be on Calais, the place closest to England. This made the Germans put forces up in Northern France/South Belgium, clearing the way for the Americans.

However, one other fact about the D-Day landings which is sometimes misunderstood is that there were 6 beaches.. Utah, Omaha, Gold, Silver, Sword and Juno. Utah and Omaha were American beaches, while Juno was a Canadian beach. Gold and Silver were British beaches, while Juno was British/Australian/Free French/etc.

D-Day's success was largely due to British help, as it was our bombers who were FAR better than the American ones. The British invented bouncing bombs, bouncing water bombs and heavy bombs that fall on tanks and stuff. British bombers also has radar from 1941 (or something) till the end of the war, but it was not shared with the Americans until it was almost over. Radar in American war planes was never used until the end of the war. This meant the British had a huge advantage over our allies, as was shown in the bombing of Dresden, when the USAF attacked by day and the RAF (British) attacked by night, which we could do because of our radar.

It should also be noted that by the time D-Day started, Hitler had concentrated his forces on Russia (as he had something against them) and on killing Jews (as he had something against them as well). By the time we got into france, the enemy forces were normal soldiers. If Hitler had concentrated his forces on the western front, we would have run into half a dozen SS Tank Armies, which could have run us into the ground.

One more thing.. Britain held out for almost 4 years until the Americans joined on our side. Hitler had sent messages to Churchill basically saying "Lets share the world, and end this war!". Obviously, we refused, but we could have ended it whenever we liked (Ok, we'd have to kill all our jews, and kick the russians out, but the americans would not have had to "save" us).

The most decisive battles in world war 2 were: The siege of Stalingrad (where Hitler concentrated huge numbers of forces, weakening the western front), the Battle of Britain (which was the basis for Operation Sealion (Invasion of Britain), but the British won because of immense bravery), El Alamein (which the British were fighting and winning, and the Americans helped finsih off faster), the invasion of Italy (American and British effort.. My grandad was in that, but he spent most of the time looting the place) and the D-Day landings (which, contrary to what you see in films like Saving Private Ryan (when he was actually a Lance Corporal.. Saving Lance Corporal Ryan?), and games like Close Combat, the Americans were not the most important force alone).

Oh, and why did the Americans not join in the war to fight for "freedom" and all that in 1939? Because they wanted to see who would win, I expect.

Two words for you.. Pearl Harbour. the non-American allies were in the pacific war long before the Americans even thought about it.


Next time you claim that America won the entire war, how about you show some respect to the countless men, women and children who died in Great Britain, France and the countless other allied countries who were fighting for the worlds "freedom" long before you were.


This has nothing to do with gun control, by the way. I'm just pointing out that the Americans didn't save anyone from being slaves, just wasted a lot of Allied (and even Axis) lives, for a war which was, as Schnapps says, not about freedom, or safety, but about industry and money.

Maybe anyone who thinks the Americans won the war should visit the war graves in France, and realise that the only winners are the ones who don't take part.

------------------
FM/2LT Aaron "Bear" Le'pue/Elite Viper 1-4/Wing 3/M-SSD Mustang/2ESF/VEN/VE(=A=)[BRC]

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Bear
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posted January 02, 2001 02:32 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Bear   Click Here to Email Bear        Reply w/Quote
Sorry, Juno was a canadian beach and Sword was british/canadian/free french/etc.

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FM/2LT Aaron "Bear" Le'pue/Elite Viper 1-4/Wing 3/M-SSD Mustang/2ESF/VEN/VE(=A=)[BRC]

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Former SCCOM
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Bear
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posted January 02, 2001 02:35 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Bear   Click Here to Email Bear        Reply w/Quote
"Maybe anyone who thinks the Americans won the war should visit the war graves in France, and realise that the only winners are the ones who don't take part."

Thats the same with the 14 year olds who run around American schools with colt .45's. You can't win when you put a gun into an untrained hand.

------------------
FM/2LT Aaron "Bear" Le'pue/Elite Viper 1-4/Wing 3/M-SSD Mustang/2ESF/VEN/VE(=A=)[BRC]

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ExarKun
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posted January 02, 2001 10:02 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ExarKun   Click Here to Email ExarKun        Reply w/Quote
This is somthing that I want to bring up...

A few months ago I was taking a 'hunter's saftey class'. In the class they instructors tought simply basic forms of staying safe while hunting, the correct way to fire a gun, etc etc etc.

They had a lot of diffrent teachers in the class such as ex police officers, ex miltiary soldiers, and a lot of normal hunters who wanted to help teach others the way of hunting. I found it interesting that every time an ex poilice officer or ex soldier spoke about somthing they would get dirty looks from the rest of the instructores or even repremanded whenever they called a firearm a weapon. Half way though the class a man stood in front and told us that the reason for this was in a hunters case a gun is a tool to effectivle kill an animal in the most leathel, and quick way possible. And that in a police officers, or a soldiers case, a gun was a weapon used to kill someone to protect, or attack. I think that there should defenitly be gun saftly laws. But I also think that there needs to be a limit on what they take away. Yes it is reasuaring to know that you have a big bad shotgun hanging over your fireplace incase any foolish burgalor, rapeist etc was to come into your house. But the bottem line is that the USA is not in a time of war, and the gun is a tool, not a weapon. I think that too many people look at a gun as a weapon. It is true that a gun is leathel, and put into the wrong hands can be very danguras. But so can a butter knife. So many people think that they need to defend themselves with a gun. Let me tell you that in my experince if someone carrys around a gun, sooner or later they ARE going to use it. I have had two close friends of mine shot in a stupid convenance store insedent. They were standing in line at the checkout and they guy infront of them pulled out a gun in the attempt to rob the store. A person in the back of the store was also carring a gun for 'self protection' and pulled it out in order to stop the robbery. He shot both of my friends, (who had done nothing) one died. Is that now self protection, or murder? It is really too bad that people feel that this ridiculas tool, this weapon this whatever you want to call it is the only means of 'self protection'. Go sign up for karate, if self protection means that much to you.

(Sorry if that was alittle drawn out, I just really got going :P )

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Timber Saden
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posted January 03, 2001 01:52 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Timber Saden   Click Here to Email Timber Saden        Reply w/Quote
Well, finally someone with a wonderous opinion that I whole-heartedly agree on. *pats Exar on the back and gives him a cookie* Too many jerks running around with firearms anymore... not for protection, but for some inner security, inner feeling of strength. I dunno, I just think that if we come to a point where every person in the US owned a gun, or over 75% carried a firearm, I'd probably be a little paranoid.

Honestly, put in to perspective everyone owning a gun, you will ALWAYS have people who like to show their's off, like to fire theirs for no apparant reason, and generally get pissed off. And I personally don't think a single person can say, if they are carrying a gun, and a large argument breaks out, that they aren't the slightest bit worried who their with has one? As XR said, guns can be a good thing in the hands of those that know how to use them...

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ETRP/Sgt Timber Saden/1SQD/1PLT/1COM/1BAT/1RGT/VEA/VE/[IOC][LoC]
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g5
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posted January 04, 2001 09:22 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for g5   Click Here to Email g5        Reply w/Quote
First of all Bear, where in my post did you get that i said thatthe americans single handedly won the war, they only helped.
and that's BS about we wouldn't be slaves if even if the US had joined. Hitler would've eventually gotten more people on his side and he would have worn down the whole world one country at a time. What we forced him to do(we as in the Allies not the US) was fight a war on two fronts which he didn't have the resources or manpower to do. If you don't think hitler wouln't have just taken over you after he got the rest of the world you are a fool. he just did that as a delaying tactic, remember that he had a non-aggression pact with Russia too. And Hitler was ruthless, just read rise and fall of the third reich. And we didn't join in '39 cause we have this little policy that we won't declare war unless attacked or it's going really badly.
To Say, the last war we fought for freedom of ourselves was WWII but really the last time we were invaded and truly fought for independence was 1812 and before that the Revolution so two of our 8 wars were for freedom. make that 3 of 8 cause of the Civil War, which was for certain peoples freedom, US people (i don't say citizens because none of the blacks were)but not all freedom, i think that was the best and most worthwhile war the country has ever fought.

P.S. sorry that it is so long

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G5
FL3 in Viper
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Fury
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posted January 05, 2001 06:07 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Fury   Click Here to Email Fury        Reply w/Quote
And to think I was on vacation and missed all this...

First off, (this ought to restart some discussion along the way), the American Revolution was about a bunch of educated planters who were left out of the political system and were pissed about it. Don't believe me? The colonists paid less taxes than the those actually living in the UK...and you couldn't exactly call Britain a parliamentary democracy back then anyway...could you? NOBODY paying taxes to the Crown really had any say in the running of the Empire. As for justice? Puerto Rico, Guam, the Virgin Islands, D.C., and a host of other rocks pay US taxes...and you don't see them having more than a non-voting representative, do you?

As for gun control, big bad W is in office and his daddy's old-boy network wouldn't let him grab guns even if he wanted to. Clinton wasn't exactly that tough on things either. I never have bought that governmental conspiracy routine either.

What I do agree on is sound gun control policy. You can't drive without a license, or vote, or a host of other things. If kids want guns, why don't we revamp the education system and teach some practical skills like map reading, proper firearm usage, objective history, basic financial/economic skills, languages other than those spoken to impress debutantes, and anything other than the pap currently offered? It doesn't make sense to offer up a means of death if some training wasn't involved.

As for conscription, just about every western power still has it. The US hasn't used it since Vietnam, thus actually fueling the argument that the National Guard, with the regulars, could've actually won that debacle. I doubt it, but the documents are out there.

As for WWII, the US was more a provider of materiel and propoganda than anything else. But, did we "save the world" for democracy? Maybe we did. Churchill hated Stalin more than he did Hitler. It was just that Adolf was actually attacking him. FDR just kind of rolled with the punches and forced the English to accept more than a paper alliance with the Reds. Pragmatism was the US game throughout the war. Naive, but effective. Look at Eisenhower. Same cut of a leader. Had two glory mad lunatics (Patton & Monty) to manage and beat some of the best forces on the planet, despite some of them being at the eastern front.

In '39 the US was an isolationist nation and the rest of the world full of colonies on the brink of being overrun. The US had time on its side while everyone else was beating the tar out of each other. Large mechanized armies showed up in '43 and '44 where there never had been any...above and beyond what the Germans were purported to field.

Technology, naivety, arrogance, and just plain ignorance of the situation helped the US to turn the tide. Not so much to win the war on the field, but to provide support for some very beaten combatants in a war no American wanted a part of. Then to later field some highly technological armies that would cause some of the worst casualties in US history. Not to be too altruistic, but that one was for a good cause.

Korea was nominally for a good cause of holding back the Communists.

Vietnam - less so.

Grenada - made good press for Ronnie Raygun.

The Gulf Joke? Got us there.

But for our members across the pond, I counter with the Suez in '56, the Falklands, Northern Ireland...and that's just in recent history.

I'm beginning to ramble and will let it go at this for the time being.

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SGM Fury
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Bear
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posted January 06, 2001 11:44 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Bear   Click Here to Email Bear        Reply w/Quote
I'd just like to defend Britain for our past conflicts

The Suez was because the Egyptians decided to nationalise the Suez Canal, meaning anyone could travel down it. So the French and the British went in, and tried to get it back, so only they could use it. It was a political war to keep the current Prime Minister in power. I have no idea what happened to him though... Since we lost the war, he probably lost his leadership. The only good thing the Suez did was to unite Gaulle (French) with the British, which made a change, seeing how Gaulle hated us.

The Falklands were to keep Margaret Thatcher in power as the Prime Minister. However, some would say that the Argentinians invaded British soil, and we had every right to send the guns in.
Unfortuently, the conflict meant to last a week lasted a few months, and many lives were lost. Britain lost a number of ships, some aircraft and an aircraft carrier.
The only good thing is that we showed that we could kick someones *** without the help of the yanks

Northern Ireland is a VERY controvershal issue. Its not a war in the slightest, not even a conflict.
You have to understand that Ireland is split by religion: Protestants and Catholics. The Catholics dominate the country, and think that the Protestants should be forced out, be killed, or both. Thats why the Catholics bomb pubs in Protestant ares of Belfast, and places like that.
The Irish do want Northern Ireland to be Irish, because they feel that its theirs. However, the British soldiers in Northern Ireland are only on British soil (land which was agreed to be kept British when Ireland became independant), and are not there to shoot any IRA gunmen on sight. They are just there to do what the police can't, like defuse bombs, clear large areas and such like.
The British are in no way at war with the Irish. The Catholics are at war with the protestants, or, in general, the Irish are at war with the Northern Irish.
For the record, the whole thing is a big screw up which should never have happened. But I can safely say one thing.. Its not the fault of the British

And, before someone mentions Britains involvement in Sierra Leone (When the British went in on their own, instead of with the UN or NATO), I will.
The British went in to train Government troops to get rid of the rebels who were terrorizing, raping and killing. It was purely a peacekeeping mission. Which was screwed up when a dozen soldiers were captured and the SAS has to storm a rebel base and get them back.. but thats another story.


Agent, you say that a butterknife and a gun are both tools. I'd like to remind you that a butterknife was designed to cut butter, and can ALSO be used to kill someone. A gun was DESIGNED to kill someone (or something), but, as a tool, has other uses.
It is my reckoning that a weapon is an object used to kill, maim, injure, threaten, etc. Therefore, a butterknife can be used either as a tool or a weapon, as can a gun.

Incidently, a tool used to kill does seem like a weapon..

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FM/2LT Aaron "Bear" Le'pue/Elite Viper 1-4/Wing 3/M-SSD Mustang/2ESF/VEN/VE(=A=)[BRC]

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Agent
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posted January 06, 2001 05:51 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Agent   Click Here to Email Agent        Reply w/Quote
actually, i think it was exar that said that.

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Agent
Citizen

Posts: 327
Registered: Sep 2000

posted January 06, 2001 06:07 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Agent   Click Here to Email Agent        Reply w/Quote
Ok, here's my view:

Before the Vietnam war (which was basically Kenedy's war anyway) it was actually an honor to go to war for the US. (watch "It's a wonderful life" sometime--the dude was DISAPPOINTED that he wouldn't go...at least i THINK it was that movie.)

However, It seems that America is now the world's personal "bodyguard" and wants to settle everyone's problems (even if they don't ask). I think America should just keep the hell out of things that it has no business in. I could not fight in a war that was not to benefit my country (like Vietnam). If the war was to protect my country and my family, I would fight. Someone has to.

Also, i found a fact that said that the majority of peoples' knowledge about Americans comes from what they see on TV, especially Soaps. If we actually acted like that, I'd hate America, too!

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